Espree Devora
TCWK S3 EP5 v2
Jason Pearl: [00:00:00] All right, all right, welcome back to another episode of The Company We Keep podcast. I'm your host, Jason Pearl. This is a podcast for everyday business owners, entrepreneurs and leaders who want to think differently about growth, want to think differently about success, and want to find better balance in both business and life. This episode and every episode of season three is sponsored by John MacDonald of Harbortown Financial Group. John and his firm work with individuals, families, and small businesses to build customized financial plans using their holistic goal based approach. If you wanna contact John, all his information is going to be linked in the show notes on my website, jasonmpearl.com. Check that out to find more information about John.
Today, we have an absolute treat for this podcast, and for all of you listeners. Have a [00:01:00] special guest, her name is a Espree Devora. I had an amazing conversation with the Espree earlier today, and you guys are gonna absolutely love it. But to introduce Espree a bit to you, let me just read through her bio and what this dynamic woman is all about. Espree has been a prolific podcaster since 2013. She is often known as the girl who gets it done and she is an absolute force in the LA tech scene and the global tech scene, for that matter, worldwide. She's the founder of WeAreLATech. She also runs a podcast called Women in Tech, and she's a champion for women in the tech community globally.
In addition to all of that, she's the founder member of Audio Collective, which is a hybrid live audio creator community. She hosts multiple, multiple podcasts and she was the Clubhouse app, one of their first icon faces. She has been featured in tons of magazines and tons of [00:02:00] publications. But to mention a few, she's been in Forbes, Entrepreneur, Harper's BAZAAR Inc, and others. And the best part about all of this is Espree has zero ego. We talk about ego today in this episode, we talk about how her goal is to lead and build a community of heart-centered entrepreneurs and building up heart-centered leaders. Which a- if you've listened to this podcast at all, you know that, that is what we are all about.
So it is an absolute pleasure and delight for me to introduce Espree Devora to all of you listeners. So without further ado, let's kick over to the episode and hear what she has to say. This is the first time we've actually physically spoken, so, you know, like you and I are like good old friends from back in the day, right?
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: This is, this is a new, new relationship, a new friendship that we have. And I followed you, I actually stumbled across you on Twitter.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: And I just kind of liked what you were saying. And I was like, "Okay." And I, [00:03:00] I told Emily, who helps me with my podcast, she's like, "You know, this girl's great." She's like, "Yeah, she's great." She's like, "You should ask her on the show [laughs]." And it looks like, "Wow, she's got 35,000 followers on Twitter. What does she want to do talking to Jason Pearl?" And she's like, "No, you should reach out." And then she, she pointed out the, the tweet that you had, she's like, "She's willing to go on podcast." But it's like that imposter syndrome, and even like that like, "I'm not good enough."
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: I'm just this guy that's got, you know, 26 episodes of a podcast.
Espree Devora: Yeah, mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: No matter what level you're at, it's just that imposter syndrome that you have.
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: And, and, and it permeates every level 'cause people could look at me, look at you, be like, "Look how successful these people are." Yet they feel the same way I do. That's why appreciate so much of what you do when you put all that good out there. And you've done like a thousand plus podcasts in your life. Like you're like a [crosstalk 00:03:45] podcast.
Espree Devora: Yeah. I can't believe that's not an exaggeration.
Jason Pearl: And you're, so from, from what I understand, you're born and raised LA, correct.?
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, and I've traveled extensively. I'm so glad I've traveled to because it, um, I think it's important like, you know, I've traveled to places like [00:04:00] Bosnia and Kazakhstan. And, you know, you get to see like when there's a war, and we have so many liberties here that, uh, we just don't understand. Traveling is important because you, you gain a lot of perspective.
Jason Pearl: In, in that perspective in life really does translate to your perspective in business. It always does. If you are only worried about what's happening corporately in your work, you will have blinders on. But when you travel, it's perspective and you have to find those opportunities. If you, if you want to fully embrace life, you have to embrace the good and the bad of it, right? And it'll change you, likely, in a really good way if you, if you let it.
Espree Devora: 100%, my mom gives me a hard time all the time. She's like, "God, if only you understood that you were successful." But [laughing] I was like, "Mom, how could you think that? You see everything I go through? How could you possibly think I am successful?" She's like, "Don't you [00:05:00] understand that you've done this and you've done that. And like that is like unusual and awesome." And I'm like, "Don't you understand that I failed at this and I failed at that." And like-
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: ... you know, I was like, "You're my mom, you're biased." But when I think about being this word rich, and I've been thinking about this a lot lately, I'm like, "What is rich? Like what is rich?"
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: And I'm like, "I've traveled the world." Like, you know, with this, with this pandemic, I've looked back on my life, um, because it's, it's felt, this pandemic, has felt like, for me, like, uh, like a life ending. I don't know, it's been very intense.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: Like I feel like very dramatic. And the first thing I thought is like, "Oh, thank goodness, I've already lived, right [laughing]?" And, um, and I started to think about wh- what has made [00:06:00] my life nourishing, enjoyable. Like what, looking back, has it been building my, the first action sports social network? Was it that, was it traveling the world? Was it building a marketing agency? And so a couple things that really it wasn't being an entrepreneur. Being an entrepreneur has allowed me freedoms that I am not even aware that I have, because I'm so like u- under the spell of like hustle that like most of the time that I've had these freedoms, I haven't even knew utilized them, you know [laughs]? So it's-
Jason Pearl: Right, sure.
Espree Devora: ... so, so the moments that have made me rich have been, um, travel, 100%, and I'm like, "Whoa, I'm successful because I've traveled.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: That had nothing to do with money. That's crazy." And the adventure of building, even though it failed, the adventure, [00:07:00] and fail is here speculative. Anyway, because right now Sears and Kmart are going bankrupt. But does that mean they failed? I mean, they've been around forever-
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: ... what is failure? So, and so the adventure, not, not that I ha-, that I... not the accolade that I built the first actions were social network. Like it's the adventure that I got to experience building a tech company at that time in the way that I did. Because I could tell you building my marketing agency was like lah, like, "Hmm, no." I mean, I even knew that I had it for like a year-
Jason Pearl: Sure.
Espree Devora: ... and I was like, "Nope, not for me." Um, and even the community work that I've done in the past several years, I feel that it's been very purpose driven. Not feel, it has been very purpose driven.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: But I haven't necessarily had a lot of life adventures with it. So like, for me, rich is life adventures.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: And life adventures aren't necessarily always to [00:08:00] do with a dollar amount-
Jason Pearl: Yep.
Espree Devora: ... or not to do with a dollar amount. So it's just interesting this word of like rich.
Jason Pearl: Totally.
Espree Devora: So, for you, did it have a number attached? Did you know when you got "there"?
Jason Pearl: So it's, it's funny that you say that because I've been thinking a lot about that over the last few years and talking to people about that. And, for me, I believe now I'm rich because I have had the ability to make decisions on my own and have that freedom. Right? And, and part of that is monetary, right? Because like-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... I used to think it used to be zeros, right?
Espree Devora: Yeah, yeah.
Jason Pearl: Is it 5 million? Is it 10 million? Is it a million? Right? Like what is it?
Espree Devora: Right, right.
Jason Pearl: But now it's like I don't have enough money to go do whatever I want to do, but I have enough money to build my consultancy and have the freedom to not work on a Friday-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... or to schedule meetings when I wanna schedule them-
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: ... or go see my dad in Florida. Being rich is freedom, and it's enriching others, right?
Espree Devora: Freedom of time, yeah.
Jason Pearl: Freedom of time. And then enriching others, like being able to have impact in [00:09:00] time, space and dedication to enrich others.
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: So I run a high school ministry on, on Wednesday nights.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: And I had this like super life changing event three weeks ago. I, I, I was the headline speaker at a, uh, like a keynote at a, at a youth conference. And it was in the middle of the woods, there was no-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... WiFi, um, because it was in the middle of the woods in like Southern New York. And I had the attention of 200 kids for two and a half days. And I, I, I had five different speaking sessions.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: And the amount of just like loftiness that was happening with these kids-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... and how like they were so, they're so desperate for people to see them and see them where they're at-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... and then want to help them through wherever they're at, they want to speak good into their life.
Espree Devora: Right.
Jason Pearl: They were so ferociously hungry for that. And it like changed my life 'cause I was like, "If I would've followed the dream of being rich, I would never be here."
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: Like I would never be here, and I guarantee you, and this is not egoistical, I guarantee you that those kids... one kid in that room is gonna [00:10:00] remember that forever.
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: And if, if just one kid does it, it's like I was exactly where I was supposed to be.
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: And, to me, like that's rich, right?
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: So that sounds fluffy. Like I've even heard you say that before like you're like, "Oh, like that sounds like fluffy to say, but it's true."
Espree Devora: Yeah, yeah.
Jason Pearl: Like when you [crosstalk 00:10:14] inside it's true. Like it-
Espree Devora: 100%, no, 100%. And I've heard so many stories about wealthy people, uh, gaining all the
dollars and feeling absolutely lost and miserable.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: And so recently I'd say it started probably a few years ago, I understood that inner ease
was what I wanted to aspire for, like inner ease.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: And then, and then recently it's been, my success metric is how joyous do I feel throughout the day, each day? And I'm a work in progress, like I'm not there yet.
Jason Pearl: Sure, yeah.
Espree Devora: But even the other day I was, um, I was sleeping in until 8:00 AM, like, you know [00:11:00] [laughing] and, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, how I've been in bed for three hours?" And, all of a sudden, it was the first time ever I had this, this awareness that I'm like, "Yeah, I can. Like I'm an entrepreneur, like it is okay, I don't have to wake up or I don't have to be..." I like waking up early, but I don't have to jump outta bed at 5:00 AM and do a six mile run and drink my whatever, whatever. And like-
Jason Pearl: And journal.
Espree Devora: Yeah, right. Like I can do whatever feels best for me-
Jason Pearl: Yep.
Espree Devora: ... to live a joyous life. Like stop with all these like self-imposed rules. And so it's, that's what I mean, but then I haven't taken advantage of my entrepreneurial freedoms because I've been filled with like self-hate and self criticism-
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: ... for not optimizing every single moment of every single day. Whether it's for personal growth or [00:12:00] business strategy or operations or learning or, you know, exercising or nutrition. It's like, go, go, go, go.
Jason Pearl: Yeah, yeah.
Espree Devora: No, just F off for three hours in the morning in bed. It's fine.
Jason Pearl: It's okay, yeah.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: And one of the, one of the things I, I, I have like taught a- as part of like my, my, my leadership side of things of what I do within Nacre Consulting, my business, is like, I, I say like success is a choice, right?
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: So like you have to, you get to individually choose what success means to you. If it's sleeping-
Espree Devora: That's true.
Jason Pearl: ... into 8:00 and it's working for two hours and then fluffing off for six hours, it's like-
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: ... that's your individual success. And nobody-
Espree Devora: Totally true.
Jason Pearl: ... be able to take that away from you and tell you like, "You're not successful 'cause you don't wear a suit to work or because you don't work at the biggest agency in town.
Espree Devora: Right.
Jason Pearl: Or that you don't have a, you know, you don't drive a luxury car or a Telsa or whatever.
Espree Devora: Right, right.
Jason Pearl: It's like, well, if that's not success for you then, what does it matter? And people allow themselves to get that dream of success hijacked by what society tells [00:13:00] them-
Espree Devora: Yeah, mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: ... their parents tell them or what their spouse tells them, what their friend tells them.
Espree Devora: Right.
Jason Pearl: And at that point success is always an individual choice, you know?
Espree Devora: Totally agree.
Jason Pearl: We're, we're working progress though, for sure.
Espree Devora: Totally.
Jason Pearl: All of us are.
Espree Devora: Like the person working two hours a day, someone's like, "You're not successful because you don't work." Uh, you don't look at a screen for eight hours. Like everybody, you're so right, everybody's gonna have their own interpretation. And it's, I always say this thing, your intuition is your Oracle. Like really tap into what your own truth is.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: And then we're all just imperfect humans speaking from a place that is filled with our childhood traumas and, and-
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: ... life situations and relationship, heartbreak, and job gains and losses. And like and no two, no one journey is replicatable in the same way. So if you read that book and if you think you can do every last step in that book and get the same outcome, it's just different timing for different folks. And so-
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: ... really tapping [00:14:00] into your own body's, um, messages and intuitions and, or, you know, in, in your case, faith. And I, I am a more, um, I believe like in the universe, but I do believe there's like a higher power, right?
Jason Pearl: Sure.
Espree Devora: So it's like tapping in into that and just being, being at peace that, um, that you were enough and, and it, and it's okay. As long as you're not hurting anybody and as long as you're living like a, a purposeful life and well intentioned and willing to learn when mistakes are made, and you know, we're just, we're all just imperfect, flawed people [laughs].
Jason Pearl: 100%, 100%, man, all flawed. Well, it- it's funny, I was, I was listening to... I was actually watching the, um, the YouTube video that you had posted with, with those guys that you had met. And there was this interview that you did with them. And you had said in it that in this community that you've built, right? That WeAreLATech.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: You kept hearing, especially from women, this, this-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... concept of like, "I'm not [00:15:00] enough, I'm not enough."
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: And, and I think we all feel that way, but if you maybe want to talk a little bit about that.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: Because that's, that's, that's a lie, right? We, we-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... all thought that's a lot, but we tell ourselves that lie.
Espree Devora: Yeah. All the time. Um, when I was building my action sports company, I just I didn't understand how incredible I was. I thought it was impossible, that I could know anything. And so I would seek outside sources for validation to people would tell me, "Oh, I know how to do things on own. Let me pay you my, my new investment money, so I could make sure to win because I wanna win." And, um, it's very interesting, to me, like the narratives we have inside of our minds that just are true, but we need to do the work to chip away at them. So like I've had so many people on the Women in Tech podcast [00:16:00] because maybe they speak English in the second language and they're like, "Oh, I'm not good enough."
Because they just assume because they speak English in the second, their English isn't good enough. There was a time that I spoke Italian fluently and my roommate was even Italian. But when I got back from living in Italy, I thought my Italian sucked because I was comparing myself to native Italians. So I did not speak any Italian to my Italian roommate. And I lost all of my Italian, and only after I'm like, "Oh, I spoke Italian fluently and could have totally maintained it." I had Italian, you know, like we just like, we're always comparing ourselves to someone else thinking that, you know... not, well, not everyone, but I've compared myself to other people thinking, "I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough."
Jason Pearl: Yep.
Espree Devora: It just it's such, um, my mom says a saying, "Don't close your own doors of opportunity." Like let someone else, like, you know-
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: ... say whatever they're gonna say. And even if that person says [00:17:00] you're not good enough, then like show up and show them how you are. You know?
Jason Pearl: Totally, totally.
Espree Devora: There's a great work, uh, there's a great book called Show Your Work by, I have it over there, by Austin Kleon. And it's, it's people are usually looking for just someone... And, and actually a, a high level Microsoft exec said this to me too, people are always looking for someone just like one or two steps ahead because it's more, it's, it's closer and more relatable to what you're involved in. So thinking that, like, there's always someone that would love to like learn from you or gain in from you or be a part of your network. Like it's just a matter of, um, connecting the dots and-
Jason Pearl: Totally.
Espree Devora: ... believing in yourself and leading with, with, with heart and the right intent.
Jason Pearl: Well, it's funny you say-
Espree Devora: Oh, that's selfish [crosstalk 00:17:49]-
Jason Pearl: Yeah, no, but, no, I, I get.
Espree Devora: But I, I would like a world where everybody led with heart [crosstalk 00:17:53] [laughs].
Jason Pearl: No, that would be great. Wouldn't it? You and I both. You know, somebody like you that has done so many different things and has so much [00:18:00] exposure, it's gotta be even more pressure because you're the girl that gets things done, right? You're, you know, like you're all these things, but if you followed your heart, what, what fills you a joy-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... you will always be the best version of yourself doing.
Espree Devora: Totally. My challenge to myself is just consistently being honest with myself of like what works for me and making the difficult choices that don't necessarily go in the grain of society. When I feel this need to go on Twitter or Instagram, if I don't authentically like wanna go there, it's like a dopamine drip kind of thing, um, I'll journal. I'll write. Right now I feel like going to Instagram, it's like, it's calling to me, but I don't actually wanna go on Instagram but I'll just talk about what I'm experiencing.
Jason Pearl: Right, right.
Espree Devora: To try to break that pattern because I've noticed that I don't actually wanna be on there, but it like society makes you feel like you gotta be on these things all the time.
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: So I've been doing little things like that. One [00:19:00] thing that- that's a little bit, maybe it's cheesy, but vulnerable for me to say, and this is when I stopped to reflect for a second. I was having a conversation with my friend, who's verified on Twitter. I am not verified on Twitter. The bots don't like me, I didn't ask for it when I could have been verified because it was never important to me. But now it's become a thing where, uh, where verification is this like, you, you have to be verified to-
Jason Pearl: Like a badge of honor, right?
Espree Devora: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, and now that Twitter's lot bigger than it was when I first was a part of the Twitter world, like it's-
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: ... it's really difficult, at least my journey, it's been very difficult to, to get verified, fine. It started to consume me, like make me feel that like, "What, what the F? Like I'm in Forbes-
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: ... I'm in, what more do you want from me? I'm an entrepreneur, I'm an Inc. Like how many articles do you want me to be in [laughs], you know?"
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: And I, and I started to ask myself like, "Do you even actually care? [00:20:00] Like do you actually like genuinely, on the inside, care?" Like the truth is like, I, the reason I didn't have it earlier on is because I didn't care. Nothing's changed, I still don't care. But now I feel like society needs that in order for me to be relevant in society [inaudible 00:20:16].
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: And I was talking to my friend the other day. So the thing that really moves me is to kind of be a champion for people. It's why I push myself to be so vulnerable online.
Jason Pearl: Sure.
Espree Devora: It's why I created the tweet of like, "I don't care if you even have zero listeners, I'll be a guest on your show." I'm like, "Stop judging people on stupid things. Like, [laughs]-
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: ... you know. Like if someone's mission driven, just be a human, like stop saying, "Oh, do you have 10,000 listens? Do you have 100,000 listens? That's all..."
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: Like F off, you know?
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: So I was like, "Look, I don't care if you have zero listens, as long as you have mission, you know?"
Jason Pearl: Yep.
Espree Devora: And I was talking to my friend in, in the DMs who's verified, who got verified in 2013 when I could have. He submitted the form, the same form that I [00:21:00] could have submitted if I had chosen to that day.
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: I said, "You know, Matt, sometimes I wonder if me not being verified em- empowers me to still be more relatable to everyone, which is so important to me." He's like, "I don't think you're wrong." Because there's something that happens, like some subconscious hierarchy that happens with the verification mark. I do everything that I do because, even though I, I wouldn't say that I'm religious, I'm very connected to like the universal spirit or whatever. I know I wanna be good when I'm on other side. I wanna know I lived a purpose driven life and I, I really am like good on the other side. So everything I do, my podcast, my moral code of how I show up to things, everything is about whoever's watching me, I want them to be proud and I wanna be proud of myself. If anyone's watching, you know, like, and watching as in the universal spirit, you know?
Jason Pearl: Yep, I got what you mean.
Espree Devora: Like [00:22:00] that, that I lived a- an honorable life. And part of living an honorable life is that we're all on the same path.
Jason Pearl: One of the reasons why I've, I've felt kind of like you more called to be louder from a personal brand standpoint, from a social media standpoint. And one of the things that made me want to reach out to you is-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... the heart-centered approach that you take. And, and I think that there's confusion, and,
and I used to be confused about this. Like if I wanted to be ultra successful, I wanted to go do this-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... there is this like little switch in my head where I couldn't care about all these other things, I just had to go. And everything in my path would just be, would be behind me. Very ego driven, right?
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: Very status ego driven.
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: And in, in, in one of the things I think is so important, especially people like you. And, and, and, and I, I laugh when you were saying like, "Maybe I'm not verified for a reason." Like, I, I think you may be right because-
Espree Devora: You know.
Jason Pearl: ... verification is only ego driven, right?
Espree Devora: [00:23:00] 100% agree.
Jason Pearl: So many people think life is a competition.
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: And if people stop thinking that life was a competition and they actually understood that helping others is a cheat code and a super power in life-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... you, you know, we would live in a much better society, right. And that's why people like you in the platform you have, right?
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: Super successful, but like you- you're vulnerable about your struggles, you're vulnerable about like, you know, maybe thinking you're not enough all the time, but you are very open about the fact that you're trying to be the best version of yourself and do everything in a heart-centered way. More people need to continue to hear that. Because when they hear people-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... who say that, they, they start to believe it. And that's what we need.
Espree Devora: I hope, I do think that we need more heart driven people, 100%. What I've challenged myself, in my own perspectives, whether I have online validation or not. I agree with you so much that it's an ego thing. Like that [00:24:00] need that we feel like I want it, I need it, I want it. I, it's very toxic and unhealthy.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: Like, and, and I'm like, "Why is so much of my energy going to this thing that my ego..." My ego totally wants it, that my ego, or at least thinks it wants it because there's other things that could happen.
Jason Pearl: Yep, sure.
Espree Devora: The other thing that I also want, Jason, which is interesting, is I don't have, have a desire to be famous. So it's interesting like here my ego's like, "I want this thing, I want this thing." But I'm like, "I don't even have a desire to be famous. Like why this thing all of a sudden matter to me so much?" And then I'm like, "Does it actually matter to me?" And, um, what I wanna challenge myself is just letting go of that toxic motivation. My friend, Danny Miranda, has a podcast. He's amazing. And, and he talks about falling in love with the journey. Whatever this universe has in store for me, like it's laid out with the perfect plan for [00:25:00] me with a series of learning lessons. And, yes, I have to show up for things to happen.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative], sure.
Espree Devora: I can't just like sit in my living room and something can happen.
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: But like everything's placed on my path at certain times for whatever experiences I'm intended to, to learn from. And, for me, to like, decide to control something, "No, the success and the rich need to happen on our October 2nd, dah, dah, dah, this year."
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: You know, like, like who am I to decide like what day? If it doesn't happen by that day, I have failed. I'm like, "Who's that?"
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: You know?
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: And, you know, I wanna surrender to the opportunity to fall in love with the journey. And whether that journey includes whatever social accolade or external, whatever it includes, period, I just want to [00:26:00] trust in the journey and then show up and invest my energy into, into purpose driven important places. Instead of energy into my ego, energy into how can I serve someone today?
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: So I, I, I think that's what I'm trying to get at. It's just something that I've been reflecting on a lot in the last few months. So it's still like a new idea. So sorry that I've, if I've used too-
Jason Pearl: No, no, no., that's okay. And I actually have it, I want to support this with a story. So I've got two girls, right? So I'm a dad of two daughters-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... Isabella, and Juliana. Isabella is 14 years old, she's a freshman in high school. Juliana's in fifth grade, she's 10. And they know daddy's got a podcast and I've got a YouTube and my 10-year-old's-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... been asking me for two years if she could have a YouTube channel and my answer's always no. But she's like, "Daddy, when, when can I come on your podcast?" And I was like, "Someday." And she's like, "Well, can I come on today?" And she's got a half day of school today.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: And I was like, "Well, as a matter of fact, I'm interviewing a really unique woman today."
Espree Devora: [00:27:00] Yeah.
Jason Pearl: So I started explaining who you are and, and I started with, "She's got tons of followers on Twitter, which she doesn't really know what Twitter is, but I was like, "Wait a minute, that's not important." And I stopped myself because here I am talking to my daughters who I want to raise to be confident, educated women that go out and change the world and whatever God has in store for them.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: And I started with like this really cool girl, who's got 35000 followers.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: I said, "No, no, wait a minute, actually, she does all these things. She started her first company here," and I started kind of like rolling out your accolades.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: It was like, and they were like, "Oh dad, that's really cool." And I was like, "Sh- she's someone that I admire based on what she's done. She runs it in technology." And I was kind of explaining to like my 10-year-old-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... and 14-year-old like even in the tech space, like there's such toxic masculinity sometimes.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: Right. You know, the bro culture, and I was like, "She's killing it in this world and doing so well." And I was like, "It's awesome. It just proves that you can do whatever you want to do, and I'm super excited to interview her." And they're like, "Oh, okay, that's cool, dad." I say all of that because I went in with ego [00:28:00] with this-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... this awesome girl that's got 30,000 followers to come on the podcast.
Espree Devora: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason Pearl: And I was like, "Wait a minute, it's not about that."
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: It's about this awesome heart-centered person that's doing great things in the world.
Espree Devora: Right. But that's the, the final conditioning. Yeah, it's, it's very normal. It's this is the world we do live in today.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: And is our own personal responsibility to remember that our journey being here has nothing to do with any of that. Our journey being here is a, a lot higher purpose. And the more we're open to learning from the lessons given to us and evolving and serving, the more we'll feel peace and content. When we create our own resistance, we're just going to experience more resistance.
Jason Pearl: Yep.
Espree Devora: And there's a lot of resistance that I have all the time, as we all have. And so I am just constantly inviting myself to [00:29:00] re-explore why I feel what I feel?
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: Why I'm holding on to X anger or why I'm holding on to X need? I'm just always like doing my best to have an honest conversation with myself. And then I'm always pushing myself to share that vulnerable journey publicly only because I am so irritated that everyone is fake. And I'm like-
Jason Pearl: Yes [laughs].
Espree Devora: ... I'm like, "Someone's gotta be real." We're all just human, we all feel this on the insides, maybe I'm feeling like a market syndrome or something.
Jason Pearl: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Espree Devora: But I just feel like someone's gotta be real. I do my best to share truths, even if they're uncomfortable truths, but with an empowering position.
Jason Pearl: True.
Espree Devora: Because I wanna be empowered too. I don't wanna say X, Y, Z happened to me, and uh, and now I'm great. That's not true.
Jason Pearl: Right, right.
Espree Devora: It's like, and I don't wanna say X, Y Z happened to me, oh my gosh, everything's like awful. Then that's not good. But it's like X, Y, Z happened to [00:30:00] me, this has been extremely difficult. Here is how I've been processing it and here's what I hope for myself for the future and here's what I want. It's just like an impact, just it's, it's-
Jason Pearl: Yeah, sure.
Espree Devora: ... honest, it's authentic, but it's, it leaves on a pathway that have the opportunity to elevate upward.
Jason Pearl: Yep. And what, what is really important about that is like what, what I do and what you do, where work with potentially founders or clients of tech companies. Uh, their tech it's like you can also choose who you wanna work with, right?
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: Like, um, like saying no is powerful, right?
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: There's power in saying no. And, um-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... one of the things I didn't do early on in my consultant business, but I do now and say it all the time is like if somebody wants to talk to me about consulting for the business, I'll, I'll be very open and say, "I wanna meet and we, I need to get to know you a little bit to find out if it's a right fit for you and a right fit for me, right?"
Espree Devora: Right.
Jason Pearl: Well, it's because I, I always say like, I don't make magic happen. I work with really good people that have really good ideas and a really good product. And I just put gasoline on the fire.
Espree Devora: 100%.
Jason Pearl: [00:31:00] So if we're not the right mix, it- it- it's gonna be okay. And I may even be able to refer you to somebody, but there's so much power in saying no, even when there's money attached. Especially, when there's money attached 'cause that's the, that's the truest accountability when you're in business. If you're saying no to money be- because of a moral compass, you know you're being led by the right thing, which is your heart. Um, because there's so, there's so many great businesses out there, and, and don't get me wrong, I want to make money. But like in the same sense, I don't want to do it and feel dirty at the end of the day.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: There's a right way and a wrong way to do things. And there's a right way to lead and a
wrong way to lead. So, um, can you, any experiences you have? Like in this, in this like big world that you live in, especially in LA with dealing with like all these tech founders, have you ever found yourself having to say no to anybody or walk away from an opportunity?
Espree Devora: Yeah. I, so I walked away from an opportunity the beginning of the pandemic, which was really interesting. Uh, but before I share that, I wanted to share one more [00:32:00] thing about the thing with, with your daughter-
Jason Pearl: Sure.
Espree Devora: ... which I love that you shared that story. Sometimes we'll see in headlines like, "So and so pass-, with a million followers, passes away." And I'm like, "How terrible." So I wrote out my one liner and my obituary and it said, you know, something like, "Espree, like a heart driven person, always looking to elevate community," or something, you know?
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative], yeah.
Espree Devora: ... more eloquent than that.
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: But it had nothing about like follower count. So I just think that's such a shame that that's-
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: ... how, as a society, we're all conditioning one another.
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: So, and, and that we have to work that much harder to untrain what the media is telling us to do and, and yeah.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.
Espree Devora: Um, an, an opportunity I walked away from. So, uh, it was, uh, it was at the beginning of the pandemic. It was so hard. I was producing a podcast for a large brand and it just didn't feel, it didn't feel right for me [00:33:00] anymore. Like it just didn't feel right. And they wanted to like renew.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: And I was, I was just like, "Hmm, it just doesn't feel right." But it's like walking away from money, you know? And you, and you're-
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: ... you're like watching the news that a recession's about to happen. And I'm, I'm like, "What am I out of my mind?" It's not like I had like, uh, bazillions of reserves. I just feel that if I do this, I'd be doing it only for the money, not because I wanted to. And it would deplete me energetically from being able to actually pursue the life that I wanna be living. It took me like a month to make the decision. It was so hard to like walk away from the money.
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: So hard. But in the end, not only did I walk away from the money, I also, um, gave them
assets and, and pointed them in the direction of like people to work with.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: Just, and I called it, I think I called it a success document. No one asked me for it.
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: My mom thought I was crazy to even create it [00:34:00] [laughs]. But like, but it just felt like it was in, it, it was in line, in line with my ethics and how I operate in the world.
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: And so I created this success, I even get handed over the music, which I didn't have to do.
A lot of people charge a lot of money for music.
Jason Pearl: Sure, sure, sure.
Espree Devora: Um, and then, uh, I went on. Anyway, they, they did end up going with the people I recommended and then that company, out of the generosity of their heart, without any expectation, sent me like thank you money, like out of nowhere.
Jason Pearl: Wow.
Espree Devora: Um, and for me, like that moment, that like full circle moment was like, "Yeah, I made the right decision."
Jason Pearl: That's where it's at.
Espree Devora: Like, you know?
Jason Pearl: Totally, totally.
Espree Devora: So, yeah, there's just I think it's, I think there's different stages. I think, o- of course, I don't know your life, but making an assumption, like I think you and I are really lucky that we have a roof over our head. That we have food.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yep.
Espree Devora: These are things not everybody has. So I think there's different levels. There's the survival [00:35:00] level, but like to survive, hopefully, you could even find like, I've been a dishwasher before, I've been a graveyard waitress.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: So hopefully you could find those like, you know, starting jobs.
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: Like, and, and, and start saving and get yourself into a place. And I know all of that is really hard, but we, especially in this kind of like crazy, uh, world that we live in now. But like to the best of your ability, sleep on couches, live with your parents, whatever it needs to be, to like get yourself to like a place and be really open-minded to opportunity. Create a mind of like abundance and intention.
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Espree Devora: And just fill your mind with positives because I really believe we tracked what we are. Um, I remember I was really upset somewhere and I, I kept repeating the mantra, "Light attracts light, light attracts light, light attracts light."
Jason Pearl: Yeah. That's-
Espree Devora: It's because I wanted light within me to attract light. And I was feeling such darkness. I'm like, "No, light, light, light attracts light. If I want more light, I need to be light, you know."
Jason Pearl: Yeah. Yeah, it's the name of this. I mean, it's, it's why I named the podcast The [00:36:00] Company We Keep podcast 'cause the company you keep says everything, right?
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: It's you will, it's the people you allow to speak into you, it's-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... and I always say like you have to protect what you see, what you hear, and what you put in your mouth and what comes outta your mouth.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: Because if you don't, uh, u- using your example, if you don't have light inside, light's not coming out.
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: If you're dark inside, dark comes outta your mouth.
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: And, and you have to... We live in a world where we're connected and distracted all day long, right?
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: It, you have to protect what you consume, right?
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: Because if you wanna be surrounded by light, you have to be filled with it, right.
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: You have to surround yourself with the people that you know are gonna hold you accountable.
Espree Devora: Yes.
Jason Pearl: So to, to speak light as well. Because-
Espree Devora: Yes.
Jason Pearl: ... there- there's a lot of frauds, there's a lot of false prophets out there, right? They, they say one thing and then they do [crosstalk 00:36:48]-
Espree Devora: Drive me crazy [laughs].
Jason Pearl: Right, and, and, and that's where, when you just say that like light, light is light, like that's exactly what, what we need to do. And-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... people that have platforms, even, [00:37:00] even my platform, it's like, if you put good out there and one person hears it-
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: ... it's like that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. And-
Espree Devora: Totally.
Jason Pearl: ... um, and I just, I just commend you for... 'cause you've been doing it a while, right? Like you've been grinding for eight, nine years in podcasting. Like it's a grind, right?
Espree Devora: Yeah, it is.
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: I think it's really important to remember that we're all silent mentors. So even if we're walking down the street and we go into a store and we choose to smile at the person and, and look the per-, the cash register in the eye and say, "Thank you and please," we all have the opportunity to be silent mentors all day long in our normal life-
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: ... without changing anything except our lights. And, uh, here's a, a, a, a quick story. I hope it's interesting. I, I was feeling... I don't know if you're familiar with, um, Michael Singer, Untethered Souls.
Jason Pearl: Yes, yes.
Espree Devora: Um, he's, he's a really, uh, inspiring author to me. And so I was listening [00:38:00] to a podcast interview or something, and I was driving. And I was feeling very... I'm in a very introverted chapter of my life, and I was feeling very like I don't wanna talk to people, you know [laughing].
Jason Pearl: Okay.
Espree Devora: I saw one parking spot and I decided to take another parking spot that was just like easier to park in and parked my car.
Jason Pearl: Sure.
Espree Devora: The last words that Michael Singer had said that I was like listening to on this audio thing was, um, that we have the power to change the world or something like that. Um, like our actions can change the world. And so I parked the car, I, I get out of the car. And then someone with a bigger car is trying to park in that first spot that I left.
Jason Pearl: Okay.
Espree Devora: Now I don't wanna talk to people.
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: I do not wanna talk to anybody. So I keep walking, and in my head, I'm like, "Espree, this is, this is your opportunity to be light." I was like, "I don't wanna talk to people [laughs]." And like, and I get a little bit further on and I keep hearing this, "You have an opportunity to change the world. You have [00:39:00] an opportunity to be light right now." I'm like, "Uh-oh." [inaudible 00:39:04] So I ran back as the person is like struggling. They're, they're like driving away, so I ran back like chasing their car like, "Hey," I was like, and they were probably startled like, "What the hell?" You know [laughing].
Jason Pearl: Who's chasing after us?
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: Right.
Espree Devora: And I was like, "I parked right there, I'm happy to switch with you." And the woman was in
disbelief.
Jason Pearl: Yeah.
Espree Devora: And we did, and I was like, huh? I was like, I was like, it was like, "It's that easy just to take that moment to be light in the world-
Jason Pearl: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.
Espree Devora: ... for yourself. And for someone else." It can truly change the world the more of us that show up that way.
Jason Pearl: 100%. And, and that is, um, I know we're, we're coming to a, to a close on our time. But like it's something that I just, I commend you for because you do have a platform. You do have a platform worldwide, but also like where you're growing in LA, like everyone's got their own opinions about [00:40:00] LA, right?
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: And like continuing to put out these messages is going to make the next founder or the next creator be like, "You know what, if she could do it that way, I could do it that way."
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: Because deep down, I think most of us all want to do what's right. Honestly, I just, I feel I'm so thankful that you, you spent time with us today because this is like a business and life podcast. But like this is, this drives everything else. Like-
Espree Devora: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Pearl: ... like being a heart centered leader, being a heart centered person, wanting to put light out in the world-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: At, at times can be really dark is exactly the message that people need to hear. And I just, you've been super gracious with me with your time, with your story-
Espree Devora: I've been lucky to be on your show. You-
Jason Pearl: Yeah, it's been, it's been awesome. And, honestly, like, this is step one of us, you know, building this friendship. Like I really-
Espree Devora: Totally.
Jason Pearl: ... I like I really have enjoyed you. Um-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... you've been an absolute delight. And, um, I know my listeners gonna absolutely love you. So-
Espree Devora: Yay.
Jason Pearl: ... if you wouldn't mind, like what is the, what is the best way people can follow you or
everything will be tagged in the [00:41:00] show notes, but where do you-
Espree Devora: Yeah.
Jason Pearl: ... where's your main platform that you'd like to act on?
Espree Devora: Sure. I am @espreedevora in all social. And if you-
Jason Pearl: Okay.
Espree Devora: ... wanna email me to spree@hey.com. So that's just E-S-P-R-E-E@H-E-Y.com.
Jason Pearl: Awesome. You are, you're the best. And I, I just wish you all the luck in the world, what you're doing out there. Uh, when I come out to LA, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shoot you a DM and tell you I'll be out there-
Espree Devora: Yeah, you should.
Jason Pearl: ... so we can have a cup of coffee.
Espree Devora: I'm so, I feel lucky, I, I feel so lucky. I'm not saying that to be polite or nice. I feel so lucky to have had the opportunity to be on your show, like, and have this conversation with you. Like I feel like we're both like bouncing light off of one another right now [laughs].
Jason Pearl: Yeah, absolutely. And I love that. I love that. And there's gonna be, including my daughters, there's gonna be a lot of people that listen to this that are gonna love this episode.
Espree Devora: Oh, yay.
Jason Pearl: Thank you. Thank you so much. Just, just keep doing what you do out there. Keep spreading light. It's awesome.
Espree Devora: Awesome. Thank you.
Jason Pearl: Thanks is Espree. I appreciate it. Appreciate you.
Espree Devora: I appreciate you too. Bye everyone.
Jason Pearl: Bye-bye. All right [laughs], thanks everybody again [00:42:00] for listening to this awesome episode. Hope you were taking notes. Hope you enjoyed it. I know it's a little longer than normal, but there's so many nuggets of great information that Espree sharing with us that I didn't want to cut it down any further.
So thank you so much for listening. If you are looking to connect with Espree at all, all of her contact information for all of her socials is gonna be linked to this episode in the show notes on my website, at jasonmpearl.com. So go there and check all of that stuff out.
Also, go into whenever type of podcast listening device you have, whatever site that you use for and follow and subscribe to Women in Tech podcast. It's an awesome podcast. I've listened to a number of episodes, you're gonna learn a ton.
So as we transition onto this episode, if you are a business owner or a leader, and you're looking for help going through situational problems or looking for situational based advice on my website, jasonmpearl.com, I have [00:43:00] opened up 45 and 90 minute coaching sessions for you to reach out to me and work through very specific problems. If that's something that interests you, go check on my website and click through that to get in contact with me.
Thanks again for keeping me company during this awesome episode today. I'm Jason Pearl, this is The Company We Keep podcast. Until next time, I'm out. Peace.